The barriers to entry are so low

Data and science. This is not just us tuning in and just, you know, using our intuition. No, no, no. We have a very powerful tool, a partnership, say, with the guys at AbilityMap who allow us to really uncover at a much deeper level what's happening in people's makeup. And, you know, for me in sales, a lot of what we do, if you think about a person as an iceberg, the bit that you can see is the bit that, you know, we tend to work with for the most part, and people are hiding or even not aware of some of the things that are below the surface.

So what we're talking about here is really understanding below the surface which is one of the most powerful things actually, and the reasons for someone's performance at work. So yes.

So let's start with maybe the problems then. What are the problems in not understanding this from both a hiring perspective, but then also from a training perspective in your view?

Well, one of the biggest problems that we see in sales And there's a number of reasons around this because it just doesn't have the career pathways and the proper development, but is that actually the wrong people go into the profession because we make assumptions about what we think who's going to be successful in sales.

And, you know, so some of the real stereotypes is, oh, this person's an extrovert, you know, they're good at talking to people, they're a people person, they're like, you know, and in fact, some of these people should never be in sales, you know.

Yeah.

So I think we make some really wrong assumptions, which leads to the wrong people being in sales, and it doesn't actually work with their underlying key preferences and motivations. So wrong people, bad performance, and people don't enjoy the roles, right? I think that's a big thing, which then in turn leads to high churn in sales.

You think, look, I haven't got the stats, but everyone knows that in sales there is high churn. In fact, the average tenure of a sales rep now I think is down to about 13 months.

Yeah.

You know, that's according to LinkedIn. And then the other thing is that we don't really understand for some, why aren't people performing? You know, on the surface everything sort of seemed okay. But we just can't get to the nub of why some people aren't performing. So I think that's, you know, that's probably some of the key points.

What do you think? There's some others that—.

Yeah, I think it's important. I think the churn one's a really big one. I think that's one that people are noticing a lot at the moment, like they're feeling that pain in terms of high churn in their sales teams. I think one of the other challenges of not understanding people as intimately as we probably should is it means we, we manage them at quite a surface level.

So there's this lack of connection between leaders and teams because they don't actually really know, know, and I know their people that well. And I think that's even harder at the moment because a lot of us are working in remote environments. So it's even harder because you're not spending that time in the office, in the workplace that isn't work conversation.

So, you know, if you've onboarded a new hire in the last 6 to 9 months, chances are you probably haven't spent a lot of time with them other than sales meetings and some one-on-ones, which are usually quite work-focused. So surface-level management, I think, is actually another challenge, particularly in a remote environment.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's really important right now, as you said. I think, you know, leaders are struggling to work out how do we do this remotely, how do we engage people, and actually now's the time to understand people and know them at a much deeper level than you have done previously. And because people have so many other options, you know, it's— they're not as connected to each other at work.

So that's a major. And then the other one is that training just may not stick as well, because if someone underneath may conceptually get what you're talking about, but behaviorably— is that— if that's a word— behaviorally, behaviorally, not verbally, behaviorally— they have just got a fear of doing it, or their preference is not to do that, then the training won't stick.

So I think there's a number of problems which surface by not understanding this DNA at a deeper level.

And it's really important actually, because there's a few key reasons I think why this matters from a sales leader or business owner perspective, right? And I think one of the first ones, if we to carry on around kind of churn and getting the wrong people into sales is the cost of replacing sales talent is extremely high.

You know, I was chatting to a sales leader yesterday, actually one of our clients, and he was telling me that, you know, even a poor performer, if they lose them, that means for the months that they have that role unfilled, they're missing out on probably $20K a month in terms of in terms of profit, or gross profit, I should say.

And then, you know, not only that, when they then go out and do end up replacing the role, that means it's typically some recruitment fees. Then there's a ramp-up time in their organization of roughly 6 months, you know, on average, you know, anywhere from 3 to 6, but probably most, most of the, most of the time around 6 months.

So the cost of replacing that person is extremely, extremely high. So I think that's the first one in terms of the why this is important.

Yeah, I mean, it's the cost of replacing, but then the cost of not, not hitting quota. And sales is, is a part of the business where you're— it's very obvious, uh, if, if you're not doing your job because the target, the target isn't hit. Then, you know, you could argue that some other areas of the business can hide when it comes to actual visible visible measures.

So, you know, it becomes very obvious. But I think with all of that, it's just— it's the talent shortage which is the key thing. So if you're losing people, it's going to be really hard to replace them. Okay. And then, you know, replacing them, you've got to be sure that you're replacing them with the right people.

And but also by understanding people at a deeper level, you might better replace them from other areas you may not have thought about. And I think we just get too blinkered within sales and sales leadership. We're just looking for the same thing. And now we, we have to consider other areas, but we can only have more confidence in that if we understand people at a different level.

And if we look at those who haven't been in a sales role But, you know, have they got the underlying preferences, motivations, traits which could make them successful? And so that's why I think it really matters right now.

And just kind of riffing on you, on the idea of this cost of quota, the cost of not hitting quota being really high, and it's very obvious in a sales role when someone's doing, you know, and it's underperforming. Well, if you don't understand your people well enough, you might not even realize why they're not hitting quota.

You might think that, oh, we're doing all the right things, we're training them, you know, everyone's been given the same love. But actually, you don't understand why that person or those individuals are not performing or why that talent gap— sorry, that performance gap in your team is so high.

Yeah.

Which is, you know, which is sometimes not as obvious. It's sometimes not surface-level obvious. And I guess that kind of brings us on to what have we noticed and what does this data actually show us?

Yeah.

Um, you know, I think one of the first ones, and it was probably a little bit surprising, I, I certainly found it surprising, is that some of the things that the data shows that lead to high sales performance are extremely difficult just to pick up in an interview or pick up in conversation.

So, you know, when we're— when sales leaders, when we're looking for sales talent, we're, you know, we're looking often for people who look like us or people we, you know, we're looking for traits we might have seen historically work quite well. But actually, some of the key things that are leading to success, you just don't— you can't really see it with the naked eye or with your ears.

And, you know, maybe give us an example of that, Scotty.

Yeah, well, just to expand on that point, what I've always seen in interviews, we always want to ask the classic question about people's previous experience or telling me about a time you've done something. So what I find amusing in some ways is that we base so much of our impression on a salesperson by them giving us one example of how they won over a difficult customer.

And certainly we go, okay, well, that— and obviously as a salesperson, you're going to pick your best example and you're going to practice that. And we take so much credence from that example. And I just, I find that in some ways comical. Now, I know there's other things we put around that, and, you know, it will give us some insight, but it's so surface level, uh, much of that stuff.

So yeah, look, some of the other things that have come through, I suppose, that have surprised us or not necessarily surprised us, but would have been difficult to look at or find in traditional methods. One of the things is about this concept or this attribute or trait of handling authority. So if you think about handling authority, it's an inherent preference to, or a capability to be okay with talking to and dealing with people who are hierarchically a level or 2 or 3 above you, the C-suite.

I mean, that word C-suite just, for some people, conjures up fear and terror. These C-level executives in these suites, right? It's just a classic, isn't it? So one of the things that's come out is that— and we then looked at things like transactional analysis, which is from the world of psychoanalytic theory, which talks about when people are in a communication, there can be different states they're in.

And if people have trouble handling authority, quite often they'll find themselves in what we call a child-parent state, where they unknowingly will be worried or scared of, or feel like the interrupting people who are in an authoritative position. So it means that they won't come across confidently, they won't like to take control, they won't like to challenge or move a process along.

So being able to uncover that allows us, um, allows us to, to see those who are more inclined to do well in the sales role. So those who've got an inherent preference or a higher ability in this area are more likely to be successful in a sales role. And we've seen clear correlation with that.

But equally, and we'll talk to this in a moment, for those who don't have a really high score result here, it means that we can focus on it. It's a training opportunity. And then what else? I mean, there's other stuff as well that's come up.

Yeah. So I think that's probably one of the more interesting ones because it's particularly like, how do you interview for that? How do you pick, you know, how do you find, how do you even notice that?

Yep.

But you know, some of the other ones that are interesting is, you know, there's some that are more common things like personal selling, for example, and, you know, someone's propensity to actually want to ultimately sell and enjoy it. Committing to goals is another big one. So, you know, how good is someone or how much does someone enjoy following through on goals and actually committing to them?

So, you know, again, it's very difficult to interview for that. You know, someone's gonna tell you, oh yeah, I love setting goals, I love following through, but how, you know, it's, do they really or are they just saying that? It brings us on to what are some of the hiring applications of understanding someone's inherent preference, you know, at a deeper level.

And I think the first one that's obvious is, well, it helps us to match people to specific jobs far better because someone's inherent preferences might lend themselves far more to a new business-focused hunter role where they're gonna have to be, you know, respectfully challenging people and pushing back. And they have to, you know, they have to—.

Yeah.

Love selling, you know, if you're going to be in a pure hunter type role versus it's actually someone's inherent preferences more suited to being in a more of a nurturing type role, like a customer success role where building longer-term relationships is far more important. So I think that's probably the first obvious application that we certainly use this for is actually matching people with the right job type in the first place.

And then, I mean, then it's also the right job type in the right company. So companies obviously aren't all the same depending on, on products they sell, customers they sell to, leadership culture, so that a top performer or performers in certain companies will have slightly different traits to, to performers in other companies.

So what it allows us to do is understand what are the unique traits which link or which the top performers have in common that we can then match to, um, to those who might want to join the company. And, and what we also have then, because not all companies, you know, perhaps some startups or mid-sized companies don't always know what good looks like, what we, what we're able to do is build this aggregated set of data across different companies, different role types, to then help them and help us give them a sense of what does good look like?

What should you be aiming for when you bring people on into your teams? So really powerful, not just for specific job types, but also the unique nature of a company as well.

Yeah, and that's been something that we've found really interesting is, you know, with the difference in inherent preferences for someone who does really well at EasyVet versus someone who does really well at Canon. Yes, there are some commonalities there, but there are equally a few differences as well. So that's been quite cool as well.

We can go into an organization and map 3 or 4 of their top performers and then go find them more of more people who shared those inherent preferences. But then, yeah, absolutely, like for the companies who don't know what good looks like, being able to use aggregated data to help de-risk their earlier hires when they don't have a good sense of what their— what the perfect BDM looks like in a growth company has been really powerful as well.

I think probably the last thing to touch on is actually helping people who are maybe considering sales as a career, helping them to understand whether it's really for them or not. And, you know, our philosophy and my philosophy, I think, you know, and I think we both share this, has always been anyone can be taught how to sell and anyone can be taught how to be good at selling, but equally not everyone wants to work as a sales— in a sales role for them, for their career.

You know, so we can actually help someone understand that. And like, do you really want to work in sales? Is that really what— like, do you really want to make 30 calls a day and in an SDR role? Is that going to be something you're going to enjoy doing or not? Because there are characters out there who love it, you know, like, you know, I'm just thinking of a couple of names like Chad, for example, who we've, you know, is one of the reps that we place and coach.

He loves it. He'll make calls all day long happily. But then equally, you know, I know personally my profile is not a great SDR profile because I don't have, you know, the same inherent preferences that Chad does. So, you know, I think it's really important that we help people understand themselves, especially when they're early on figuring out, is this a career I want to step into?

Help them understand whether it's right for them.

Yeah. And I think that's why sales as a profession has got such a bad name because the barriers to entry are so low. You know, again, I come back to this, it's not like law or accounting or all the trades where you do this apprenticeship. You just literally, you turn up and say, I'm a salesperson, you've got a phone, and then you're into it.

And it's only when you've been at 3 months or even a year, if you really guts it out and just going, I hate this, this is not for me. And People leave, and and and you know, and they might have been given the right sort of training though. You know, they might have had the right sort of support around them.

Many don't, but most don't. Most okay, most don't. But it's because of this this underlying preference and traits means they should probably never have gone into it in the first place. So you know, the sales. Profession has a problem. We don't get enough people into it, or we get the wrong DNA into it.

So this is really important, as I say, um, in terms of helping people understand their career and, and if it is, if it is for them. And people who might be switching careers, because there's a lot of people who've gone into other careers which you might have some similar traits which would lend themselves to going into, to sales.

And so that's the other great you know, great application.

That's right. Some of the best salespeople I know actually came from highly technical backgrounds and made the switch, you know, almost halfway through their career and switched into sales and then absolutely crushed it. So then the other side of the coin is, I guess, the training and leadership applications of this, you know.

So what is— how does better understanding you, your teams, your teams, um, help you as a sales leader or as, you know, or as a sales coach as well?

Yeah, well, I, I can talk about my own personal experience of this because I, earlier on in my career, I would have scored lower on the handling authority area. I'm not, I'm not, not like you. You're off the charts. You'll just go, go at a CEO and good, good for you, right? So, and then look, we don't need to get into the, you know, what's the reason for that.

I just, I just know that would have been the And in fact, I remember I used to do all this cold calling in London and I'd be phoning up these guys, these CEOs and sales directors and saying, hey, Scotty here, how are you? And they'd go, what do you want? And I'd be really offended and I'd be like, oh, what do you want?

I'm trying to— I've got this need to please. And what do you mean? They're not— what? It just really killed me in the beginning. And, and as I learned a bit more about me and my style, I didn't have this level of understanding that we could get now. And it took a lot longer to understand what was going on.

But what helped me was, was, um, some, some personality training. And what I mean by that is you have to modify your behavior based on, you know, the person that you're talking to. So I was, you know, probably a bit more extroverted then, or a bit of amiable And I had to realize that because I probably had a lower handling authority ability, when I was speaking to pragmatic CEOs or sales directors, I had to cut all the fluff.

And I had to just go straight in for the call, be pragmatic, not show lots of emotion. And so if I think about now and what we do, being able to identify if people don't have such a high ability, capability handle authority, some of the things that can happen is that we can help them realize that and help them— what do you need to do?

What do you need to change if you're going to be dealing with someone who's more pragmatic or on a higher end of the hierarchy? And, you know, so some assertiveness training, how to ask better questions, how to actually get in the right mindset before you get on the call. You know, don't think that you've got to have the same amount of knowledge as a CEO.

You just need to be an expert in the problem that your product or, um, or your service solves, you know. So, so there's a number of things that can be done to, to really change that. And it's not that it's gonna suddenly mean they're gonna feel on par with the CEO, then suddenly their handling authority is gonna go through the roof.

But in that moment, we've got some techniques and tactics and tools which can make an impact. So that's one area. I think that's one of the bigger areas, especially for people who are starting out. But having said that, just to dispel perhaps the myth, is that young people without much experience can have a high propensity for handling authority.

Yeah.

It's not an age-dependent thing. And in fact, what we have seen is people who have many years experience actually have a low propensity in this area. And we've seen actually where people aren't performing, this is one of the major reasons for it. So that's a big one, but there's, I mean, there's others.

Yeah, so, you know, I think just like, just to summarize that one, it's if you understand where someone's inherently strong and then equally where they have opportunities to improve with their inherent preferences or inherent weaknesses maybe, or things they don't like doing so much. If, if we can, by understanding that, we can actually tailor coaching and give them development in those areas, in the tools and tactics and approaches.

Just like you, with you, you know, your realization over years, by the sounds of it, in terms of understanding that handling authority wasn't something you're particularly strong on, but then building over time and getting better and better and better at it. Whereas now, probably if you redid the ability map test, you probably would score higher than you did when you were 20.

Yeah.

Um, maybe. Um, uh, because—.

Or—.

But actually, that's not that important. What's more important is that you—.

It's more important to have the tools in the moment. It's the tools. And then over time, it becomes almost, you know, second nature, if you like, over time. And it wasn't that low that it was going to be an ongoing problem. It was a bit lower that sort of said, if you do these things, it will— you'll have enough in your arsenal, you'll have enough in your toolkit.

And then I was, you know, I was high at some of the other things, you know, personal communication and personal selling, which Which, you know, because not everyone has got everything, you know, this perfect profile.

Yeah.

So, you know, we're complex creatures. So if we can understand the areas where I say we might be a bit lighter on, but I think we've also got to focus on the positive as well, because if someone has got this great ability to handle authority or commit to goals, and you might talk a bit more around the committing to goals piece, is that if they're great at this, then Geez, let's make sure they've really got that going on in their roles, and maybe they can help mentor and coach others in that area as well.

You know, as a leader, you don't have to take all this stuff on. Um, you can actually use your team to mentor and coach others.

Yeah, so, you know, that's the first one, is the training opportunities. It's also, if you look at it across a team level, it can help you then plan out where the team needs whether it's individual support or team-wide support, which is quite good. So it can help you plan out development plans for a team.

But then, you know, the other side of it is from a leadership approach is, you know, if you have people or a person in your team, for example, who is low on committing to goals, what you can do in that situation is provide some structure around them to help with that. So, you know, I'll use myself as an example.

I score quite low on this area. Does that mean I've never hit a goal in my life? No, of course not. It just means I have to create a lot of structure in my life to make sure I stay on track. So I become slightly OCD about using a calendar, for example. And, you know, if it's not on my calendar, you know, my philosophy is it's not on my calendar, it won't get done.

So, you know, if you understand these things as a leader, what you can do is actually create structures around your team members, around your reps to to support them in these areas. So it's quite, it gives a lot of powerful insight. So yeah, I guess to summarize all of this because it's quite a lot, we try, it's quite a lot.

Let's try and bring it all together here.

Well, I think, you know, the basic summary is get to know your, I mean yourself as a sales leader as well, right? Get to know yourself, but your team, at a deeper level. And I don't just mean existing team, but people you might bring on. There is a deeper level than what you see on the surface.

Understand what is gonna— what makes performance in your business, in your sales team. You know, what are the traits that you're looking for that you have which leads to top performance? And then understand that better. Understand so that you can build a better relationship And help motivate and dial into the individual, not just blanket same approach, same training for everyone.

And that will be motivational. And look, you know, at the worst end, you might realize that perhaps some people just shouldn't be in those roles. Okay, and you may actually breathe a sigh of relief because you've been trying to bang your head against the wall, work out what's not happening. And it may be just they're just not the right person in that role.

But, you know, the really exciting thing is it might open up some possibilities around others that you may not have considered before. And I think in this tight market, that's something that companies, you know, have to look at. Um, so yeah. Yeah.

And I, you know, what we're seeing is from the companies we're working with, we're seeing tighter performance in terms of gap between best and worst if you start to get the stuff right. So you can bring that gap down because through tailored insight-driven coaching, not just generic training for everyone. But then the second thing is just lower churn.

You know, the people that, that are coming on and we're going through this, you know, that we're using this, this kind of approach to bring on are sticking around longer. They're being promoted quicker. They're, they're performing better. And they're happy and they're enjoying it. So, you know, I think it's really important. It's really, really important across a sales function to get the most performance out of them is by understanding the individuals.

So I just want to wrap up one question, Scotty. I was supposed to ask you last time. This is a question we ask everyone is, you know, as a sales leader, What do you know now that you wish you knew in your first role?

I know now that it is possible to understand your people at a deeper level. And so my first leadership role, it was just really trying to probably work with— I can think of one person in particular who should never have been in her role. And I tried so hard to work with her to make it work.

She was a lovely person, um, but obviously just shouldn't, shouldn't have been there. And I think if I had known this at a deeper level earlier on, we could have saved a lot of pain, um, for us both. And I, and I think that again, I come back to sales and its lack of professionalism at times, its lack of pathways, career training, or set qualifications we need to do more due diligence and understand people at a deeper level.

So I think if I'd known this earlier on, I could have helped more people not go into the profession that were wrong for it and maybe brought some others on who I wouldn't have perhaps at first considered. And I think it just helps with a more objective approach. Approach. So yeah, that's what I would have changed.

Brilliant.

Well, there we go. A good topic. There's plenty more to it as well. So if anyone obviously wants to talk more about it, we could talk for hours on end, but it's a key topic, so we'll leave it there for the moment.