Navigating big life decisions and the importance of self-development

Thanks for joining me today. How are you doing?

Yeah, Alex, thanks for having me. Oh, I'm just, I'm so excited. I accidentally no-showed you last time we were supposed to do this, so I'm very grateful that you let me come back and I'm very excited for the convo.

It happens. Life gets hectic and we all make mistakes. So for those who don't know, Leslie, you're the founder of the SalesLed Go-To-Market Agency. But tell us a little bit more about your journey in sales. Yeah.

So I spent 15 years in traditional sales roles, everything from an individual contributor to player coach to people leader. I was a head of sales 3 times. So I've done all the different types of jobs. I mean, I've made over 250,000 cold calls. So like, I very much, I walk it like I talk it.

I've also had maybe what you would consider a nontraditional sales career in that I have industry hopped. So I haven't spent like 15 years selling SaaS. I have sold, you know, everything from like the one-call close transactional sale through to the 6-figure plus, like very consultative sale. I have sold to just about every persona.

You can imagine. So really have had the privilege throughout my career of selling a lot of different types of products to different personas, different sales cycles. Mostly it's been business owners or like Fortune 500 C-suite. So I have tended to, to the more senior persona. But that wealth and variety of experience made me realize that maybe I can do a little something special and having the chance to work with many organizations instead of just one at a time.

So I created the SalesLed Go-To-Market Agency just as a like passion project side hustle and it soon became my calling, which was shocking to me. Like I never thought entrepreneurship was my path. And then suddenly I got at this turning point where I either needed to accept this new job offer that was a, like, it was a $460,000 job offer.

It was insane, like a genuinely life-changing amount of money, or I needed to follow like my heart intuition, all the signs the universe were sending me and bet on myself as a full-time founder.

Yeah.

I took the founder route. I took that 15 years of experience and now I work with B2B SaaS and service orgs who are trying to figure out how to outbound better.

Gotcha. Before we dive into our topic, actually, I just wanna touch on that because like those life-changing decisions are so like, they're a lot and that doesn't even, that description doesn't even cover it. How did you even go about making that decision? Because I'm sure there'll be listeners who are going through like similar sorts of decisions like that or you know, or will happen in the future.

Like, yeah, how do you even unpack a decision like that? Because you're right, life-changing amount of money, amazing. Like, on paper probably seems like a no-brainer. And I'm imagining people around you are like, oh my God, like, what are you doing? So yeah, tell me, tell me your thought process.

Yeah, bang on. On paper it was, of course I have to say yes.

Yeah.

And, you know, from my family, oh, you're You better say yes to that. That would be silly, right? So it was, it was, it was really scary. It was really scary to say no. And I think always betting on yourself is a little bit scary, right? But that like juxtaposition of 2 options where one was this like life-changing amount of money that kept me like firmly on track to the goal I'd had for many years, which was to be a chief revenue officer or CRO by 40.

Or not that, like, not the thing that I had just spent my entire career working towards. But what made sense on paper did not make sense really, like, in my heart, in my chest, in my gut.

Right. So it was a feeling.

It was a feeling. It was like, I really followed my gut on this one.

And it's obviously gone really well.

It has.

It has.

But like, that is not how I make decisions. Like, like, let me give you an example of how I make decisions so that people can deeply understand how wild it is that I trusted my intuition on this one. I am a native Montanan, which is like a pretty rural state in the US.

Now I live and work in Chicago, which is like a major metro in Illinois. And to move to Chicago, I created an Excel document. Yeah. And on one side, I put all of the cities over 250,000 residents that I thought would be cool to live in, both in the US and a few, like, I think, like Barcelona was on there.

So maybe it was Madrid, something like that. And then on the top, I put all of the things that were most important to me, but then assigned them point values based on their level of importance.

Right.

And then I went through and I literally filled in the points and Chicago had the most points. So I moved to Chicago without a job.

Oh, that's amazing. Right. So that's how you normally make decisions, like hyper-analytical, like quite a structured process. And then when it came to this massive decision in your life, you're like, I'm gonna trust my gut. This feels right.

Yeah. Yes. I'm usually a very deliberate decision maker. I make decisions quickly, And I am like a, I don't look back sort of decision maker. Um, but this one, I, yeah, it, it felt scarier to not bet on myself. Like it felt scarier to, to stay the course because the course had gotten me burned out so badly 3 separate times that I was like, you know, barely hanging on to my mental health.

Yeah.

Like, the course has left me in terrible situations of like gender discrimination and sexual harassment and sexism. And like, it just— my— the dream that I thought I had was not serving me in the way I thought it should.

And then when you made this monumental decision, obviously when you start something new, it's hard. And, you know, I don't know.

As you well know.

Well, yeah. And You know, I remember moments of not doubt necessarily, but like maybe questions of like, have I done the right thing? Certainly in the early moments of like getting any new business going, you're like, you do have like momentary, like especially when you were just like sitting like about to go to sleep and you're like, fuck, what am I doing?

You know, like, God, I used to have an easy life. I used to like work like a normal week and earn a shedload of money and life was pretty sweet. And now I'm grinding it out a few months into building a new thing. Like, what is going on? Did you have those moments and how did you deal with them?

Sort of. Okay. I am, I think I'm in a somewhat special position because I am a solopreneur by choice. Like, I'm not building a product. I have a service-based business. So it means I'm like not making payroll to pay other people. I'm not, right? So that does, that does put me in a slightly more privileged position in terms of financial security that like I don't need to pay a dev to build a product or like I haven't taken a team on and need to make payroll.

So that, that does reduce but certainly not eliminate the financial stress. Like I, I've always had a bit of beef with like the, the people that really glamorize entrepreneurship as better Like you're a better person if you're an entrepreneur than you have a job. Like the amount of times that I've been like, oh my gosh, do you remember when like thousands of dollars used to just show up in my bank account every week?

Like, wow.

Yeah.

But I also got like a $100,000 accelerator check before I bounced from my company and I used that entire thing as a runway.

Gotcha. Okay, cool.

So I like, and I had been running the sales-led GTM agency as a passion project for a number of years. So like testimonials, I had a tech stack, I had like a, at least gentle idea of like what type of work I wanted to be doing and the people I wanted to be doing it with.

So having some of it figured out.

Yep.

Plus the runway, plus not having the burden. Like, I'm also childfree, right? So like, I'm not like trying to save to put kids in college. I'm not trying to play a dev to develop a product. To paint that picture that like, that does not mean that I did not have nights where I woke up in the middle of the night being like, what did I do?

Yep.

But Never to the extent that I thought I made the wrong choice.

Right.

It made me realize, like, oh my God, I, I need this to work. Like, I am so happy doing it. I'm like, yeah, the new life that I have created for myself is so meaningful and so important to me that, like, I will do whatever it takes to make this work. Right.

Well, that's awesome. It sounds like it's been a very good journey for you. And, um, I think, you know, really the lesson I'm hearing here is you've got to listen to what your guts or, you know, whatever that feeling is sometimes, because on, you know, the obvious decision is not always the right one.

And it won't— and, and certainly in my life, whenever I followed my gut Things have usually turned out pretty well, even if I didn't know exactly how it was going to turn out. Like, my second business, my co-founder and I didn't even know each other, and we met on Zoom through someone else I didn't know very well.

And then like a couple of months later, we were like, should we do this business together? And we just did. And it kind of— it was like a feeling. I was like, yeah, this seems like the right move. And it just worked out really, really well. So, yeah, I think it's really interesting to hear your story.

Now, that's not actually what we're gonna planning on talking about, but I just thought it was super interesting.

You don't want me to describe the Excel documents that I make, my deliberate decision-making process?

We can pull that. Maybe we can drop that as a link in the comments as a resource for people. But no, like, what we were gonna talk about today is just learning, development, knowledge, and And we were talking before we started recording about reading actually, and the discrepancy between the genders in reading, which I didn't know and was fascinating.

So I'd love you to tell me a little bit more about that. And yeah, because I thought it was fascinating. And then let's talk about how self-development or like knowledge acquisition in general is so important and has been important for your success.

I also didn't know, and it was also shocking to me. So, like, very quick backstory, um, for folks. I started a business book club just running it as, like, LinkedIn Lives 3 years ago, and that came from a place of me wanting to read more nonfiction.

Yeah.

Um, and also, like, a general dissatisfaction or annoyance with the, the way that we consume information. We, including myself, where, you know, like, I see a TikTok video and I'm like, oh, I'm definitely gonna make that recipe, click. You know, like, I see a LinkedIn post and I'm like, oh, that's so interesting, scroll to the next.

And like, it's not totally our fault, right? These like mega million dollar corporations have built these hyper addictive pieces of of technology that are ever available to us, and our brains are hardwired to seek dopamine. And so understanding all of that, I was like, I want to consume this information in a different and more meaningful way, meaning long-form books, and I want to bring people along with me on the journey.

So created this business book club, was running it as LinkedIn Live. It was successful enough that after doing that for like 14 months, I monetized it and made it into a private closed Patreon community, which is, which is what I run now. Wait, what the hell was the question was I answering?

Oh, about the gender reading gap.

Oh yeah. So as part of like running the business book club, I have done a lot more research on who's reading books and what type of books they're reading. And one of the things that blew my mind is that men don't really read.

Hmm.

Just, it like, it shocked me. And I think part of the reason it shocked me is that because I run in a circle of book readers, like, I just assumed everybody sort of read. And like, you know, TikTok has a whole side of TikTok called BookTok. Um, and yes, it is like, it is dominated by women, but there are still so many men talking about books and their passion for books.

And I think what surprised me most about it, Alex, is that if you look at who's written most books, particularly most nonfiction books, it's men. It's white men.

Hmm.

So I just assumed that, like, the people reading the books would be reflected in the authors of the books, and I was dead wrong. Depending on the data you're looking at, um, like, I was just looking at some data from Deloitte that women read twice as much as men.

Yeah.

But before we went live, I was referencing some other data, and I was trying to figure out where it was because I wanted to like be very specific about it. But I found it's not the exact data set that I was looking at earlier. But it was like 88% of women read at least one book a year, and only 10% of men read one book a year.

So the truth is somewhere in there, right? So it's like maybe it's not 80% women, 10% men. Maybe it's 80% women, 40% men if we're looking at the Deloitte data that says double. But that's still so wild to me.

Yeah.

And then like the other layer of that was that when men do read, they almost exclusively read nonfiction.

Yes. And that's very much relate— like, I relate to that a lot, is that when I was a kid, I'd like love nonfiction. I love fiction, like when I was little, you know, like kind of sub-teenager. And then as a working adult, the only reading I've ever done has been broadly work-related reading.

And yeah, it's super interesting. And it's a crazy stat when you like the stats we were you just shared. Like, it's crazy, um, because there's so much— even if you are reading purely non-fiction stuff, like, there's so much you can learn and take into your career and take into what you're doing. Plus, there is like— reading actually is quite fun when you make the space for it.

Um, but yeah, crazy, crazy stats. What's the message there? It's like, guys, like, we've got to read more. We're getting left behind on the reading front.

And like, give yourself permission to read for pleasure.

Mm-hmm.

Like, you're allowed to read just because it's enjoyable. Like, it doesn't have to be a book on self-development. And I think one of the things we were also talking about before we went live is the difference in data that's reported from like publishing houses in terms of who's actually buying books versus self-reported data, and that the self-reported data, like, many more men report reading, but they are reading Deloitte articles or, you know, Harvard Business Review or the Wall Street Journal or whatever it is.

And the difference between short-form and long-form reading, I mean, it's, it's part of the reason I started the book club in the first place, that we're so used to like quickly consuming ideas and moving on to the next one. Without taking the time to like digest them, understand how they might apply to our lives and the work that we do, and then actually test them.

So we trick ourselves into thinking that we are getting smarter and getting better, but like we're not, we're just accumulating a bunch of fun facts.

That's a really good point. Like, what have you learned, you know, from obviously developing people and, you know, upskilling them? Like, what have you learned in terms of How to actually consistently, one, teach someone something, but then also actually make sure that they apply it and improve their capability over time? Like, yeah, what have you learned there?

That it takes a lot more time and effort than you would think. Like, I feel like that's the big one. I, like, I made a change in the way I sell my training series. So now it's 7 sessions over 3 months, and I won't let clients book them closer than 2 weeks together.

Right.

Because what I found is that what clients want is somebody that comes in and checks the box of training.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

I'm gonna come in and I'm gonna do a 4-hour deep dive with you, but then that's like literally the only external training they're investing in for the entire year.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's gonna be cool. Like, I am absolutely going to share incredible knowledge. People are going to gain value from it. It's gonna be great. And then after a couple of weeks, it'll be 70% great. And after a couple of months, it'll be maybe 30% great. And by the end of the year, it'll maybe be 10% great.

So I think that that style of training has such serious diminishing returns. And what I prefer to do, which you could go so much further on this, but folks, I'm doing the best I can, is at least hold 2 weeks between topics. So we'll do a really specific topic. Like, I generally start my training series with active listening.

Yep.

Because it is a skill and it does take practice.

I agree with you there.

And then— thank you, thank you. Um, and then at the end of the session, there will be continuous learning prompts. So I'll do like a read, listen, like different, you know, different brains, although they've sort of debunked like learning styles, whatever. I still think you're more likely to do the thing if you see a way to do the continuous learning that is exciting to you, like read, listen, actually do an action, whatever it is.

Although we did just read, not Seth Godin. Adam Grant. I was like, oh my gosh, it's a person I love. Adam Grant's new book, and he goes really deep on not just like the debunking of learning styles, which is— that's happened a while ago, but the fact that people actually learn best when they aren't learning in their default learning style, their preferred learning style, because it forces them to focus more and be more present.

That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.

Isn't that interesting? Isn't that interesting? Um, but that's sort of an aside, but What I will do is work with the management team then to have them stay focused on just that single task. Like the only thing that they are going to train against and coach against and talk about in their one-on-ones for that next at least 2 weeks is just that one single task.

Yeah.

So at least for 2 weeks, that's what you're practicing over and over and over again. And you're doing it very deliberately and very intentionally. And the data on deliberate practice as a path to expertise is really strong.

Yeah.

So I like, I think the number one thing I've learned is that it is so, so, so hard to embed learning and skill sets and mindsets. And part of what makes it so hard, at least for me as a person that sells sales training, is that there is a disconnect between what people want in terms of the activity and what they want in terms of the results because they want this to work and for it to be so sticky and for it to have long-term impact.

But the activity that they want is for somebody to come in and do that, like, check the box. We hired a trainer, they came in and talked to us for 2 hours, and now we're out.

Yeah.

Those, like, those just don't work together.

It's that instant gratification mindset that, um, organizations— so like, it's kind of like everywhere you look in society, right? It's like, I want it now. Um, and unfortunately, that's happened in the world of sales training, or like how organizations often think about sales training. And the problem is, I was just looking up the stat whilst you were talking there because I wanted to get it right.

It's that within 1 week of a training session, 90% of the content is forgotten. And the only way that you actually embed, like, real behavioral change is exactly what you described, is that ongoing reinforcement and coaching. Otherwise, it just gets lost. And the problem with coaching is that it's slower. And it doesn't tick that instant gratification checkbox budget, and it takes more effort.

It's slower. It's harder to do. Uh, it's less scalable, etc., etc. So, um, yeah, like really, really interesting. And like from my prior business, when we trained and coached new hires for organizations we worked with, we noticed that they ramped up in half the time and that the new hire failure rate almost, almost was eliminated.

It was like less than 3%, um, compared to industry standard of like 1 in 4. But it takes time and it's way less scalable and it's, you know, it's harder to do well. But yeah, it's super interesting. It's that continuous learning application, all of the rest of it, like all of exactly what you described, like that's what makes the difference.

Yeah, it is. It is. It is like it's simple but not easy.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

We know how to do it, but making the time to do it and doing it well is another thing. But I would say for folks listening, like, don't get overwhelmed because you don't have to go from, you know, 25% to 3%. Like, that's amazing. That's best case scenario. But just think about one more thing that you can do.

Like, if you're leading a sales training with your team, just is there one more thing you can do? Like, is there continuous learning prompt that you can have them confirm that they've done in the following week? Can you have like a 30-minute AMA the next week where they come back and they like ask follow-up questions or share success stories.

Like, is there just one more thing you can do, like, to take your 90% stat?

Yeah.

If you can then a week later have another activity which keeps it top of mind for just one more week.

Yeah.

The probability that they're going to digest and embed that is like exponentially higher.

Yeah.

So don't think about doing all the things. Think about doing just one more thing. And that will make an impact.

Yeah, I love that. I could talk to you about this for a lot longer, but we are coming up on time. So I want to ask you one more question.

How did that happen? No, Alex.

I know, it's amazing. It's— time flies. But I'm gonna ask you a question we ask everyone who comes on the show, which is knowing everything you know today, go back to your first day on the job in sales. What's the one piece of advice that you would give your younger self?

Run, run, run. Not from sales, but definitely from the company I was at. It was a really toxic company. But I didn't know because like, you know, this is circa like 2008. I didn't have anybody in my family that was in sales. Like we didn't have like LinkedIn and Women in Sales and Pavilion.

We didn't have these communities. And I didn't like have any friends in sales. So I was just like, this sucks, but I guess this is how it is. Like, I just, I gotta, you know, I gotta tough it out. Nose, elbows to the grindstone, nose to the something, something.

Nose to the grindstone.

Thank you. Yeah, nose to the grindstone, something. But I very much had this mentality of like, I guess I just have to like bear these burdens of like practices that really gave me the ick and of like sexism. And I was like, I guess this is just what it's— and I had also just moved from Montana to Chicago.

It's like my first like big girl job. So I was like, oh, I guess this is just how it is. So I would say run away from that company and find a better place to start your sales career.

Yeah.

My advice, which maybe goes all the way back to like trust your intuition.

Yeah.

Because even like, you know, like 20-ish-year-old Leslie, I already knew it didn't feel good, but I just was like, it doesn't— I completely disregarded my intuition and my gut in favor of like, this is what it's supposed to be.

Yeah. Yeah.

So just, so just do it. Just tough it out.

And it's hard when you're young.

Yeah, bring it full circle. Like, try— it is, it's so—.

It's easier because you don't know, you don't have things to compare it to.

No. And I didn't have the confidence. Like, even in that job, I did not have the confidence to be like, I don't feel comfortable doing that, don't talk to me that way, that's inappropriate. I was just like So yeah, I don't know. Find a way, trust your gut, speak your mind, take up space, all that good cliché.

You've kindly got a giveaway for us.

Oh yeah, I sure do.

So tell us, well, firstly tell the audience where they can find you and then also tell them about your generous offer.

So find me on LinkedIn. That's my primary channel. I've been posting there for over 1,000 days every single day. But if you do prefer video, I'm also on TikTok @SalesTipsTalk. And if you also want to read more books like Alex and I, they are business books, but I do host a business book club.

It's a Patreon community. And what I'd like to do to folks that listened is offer 3 free memberships for the rest of the year. So you will organize the giveaway.

I will.

I don't know, maybe we'll do it on LinkedIn and make it like the first 3 people or something. But if you were listening to this podcast, race to LinkedIn and we are gonna give away 3 free memberships to Business Book Club.

That's awesome. Leslie, thank you for coming on the show. It's been a pleasure. I've really enjoyed it and look forward to speaking to you soon.

Same. Thanks, Alex. Have a great day.